Ep 14 - Leading with Values: Doug Lennick of think2perform on Emotional Intelligence for Success in Wealth and Life

• Investor behavior, not market conditions, determines financial success. The Four Rs framework helps you make rational decisions during market volatility.
• Past behavior predicts outcomes more reliably than past performance. Unlike market timing, your behavior can be changed through practice and self-awareness.
• True fiduciary responsibility requires emotional intelligence and moral intelligence. Helping clients align decisions with values creates lasting impact.

Disclaimer: [00:00:00] The following podcast by Fusion Family Wealth, LLC Fusion is intended for general information purposes only. No portion of the podcast serves as the receipt of or is a substitute for personalized investment advice from Fusion or any other investment professional of your choosing. Please see additional important disclosure at the end of this podcast.

A copy of Fusion's current written disclosure brochure discussing our advisory [00:00:15] services and fees is available upon request or at www.fusionfamilywealth.com.

Voiceover: Welcome to The Crazy Wealthy Podcast with your host, Jonathan Blau. Whether you're just starting out or [00:00:30] are an experienced investor, join Jonathan as he seeks to illuminate and demystify the complexities of making consistently rational financial decisions under conditions of uncertainty. He'll chat with professionals from the advice world, [00:00:45] entrepreneurs, executives, and more to share fresh perspectives on making sound decisions that maximize your wealth.

And now here's your host.[00:01:00] 

Jonathan Blau: Welcome to another episode of The Crazy Wealthy Podcast. Today is a truly special episode to me as I get to welcome. Doug Lennick, CEO of think to perform. Doug is a true pioneer in the practical applications of behavioral finance. [00:01:15] Many decades before most were even aware of its existence. Doug recognized early on that behavioral counseling had to be the central focus of any investment advice that was to be effective.

To this day, our industry still attempts to solve a problem that's almost purely [00:01:30] behavioral and emotional with solutions that are almost purely technical and analytical. Doug was the senior advisor to the CEO of American Express and Ameriprise Financial long before he received his college degree at the age of 57.

His journey [00:01:45] is truly extraordinary. To say he was ahead of his time is, is, is, uh, among the biggest understatements I could make. But, uh, he was ahead of his time, so I'm gonna make it, uh, with that. Doug, thanks so much for, uh, for joining the Crazy Wealthy Podcast. 

Doug Lennick: Yeah, thank you [00:02:00] Jonathan. It's, uh, just means I'm old.

That's, I've been around a while, but. The behavioral piece, you've mentioned it a a bunch. And the advice side, you know, it's really a two-sided game. It's on one side, it's knowing what to do, [00:02:15] and then on the other side it's the doing it. And, and, and I think most of us, even though it's just two sides, I think most of our, our viewers and listeners have experienced, there [00:02:30] can be a long distance between knowing and doing.

And, and that's really the work that you do brilliantly, is you actually get people to do what it takes, not just know what it takes. 

Jonathan Blau: Well, thank you and [00:02:45] 

Doug Lennick: well, that, that's why I, that's why I was honored to get, uh, asked, invited on. So I'm very privileged to be here, but my history on this goes a way long ways, you know, I could see this coming, I hate to [00:03:00] say this, but I could see.

The beginnings of this coming all the way back in the 1970s and then the, it kind of came rushing, uh, a lot more in the eighties. I [00:03:15] could see it coming. It worked in the, with advisors as we started to understand it, but it it been a little slow at getting to the investors themselves because there's just not enough people like [00:03:30] yourself who've actually understood.

The real game is investor behavior, not just in any, in, in their investment life, but in everything. So if, if any, one of our viewers would like to understand their [00:03:45] current condition, if I wanna understand my current physical condition, my current emotional condition, my current, uh, financial condition, all I need to do is look into my past behavior.

I behaved [00:04:00] my way right to where I am now. We all have, and if we would like to predict our future, what we might wanna do is take a glance at our current behavior that will predict the future. And if that [00:04:15] prediction doesn't look so good, the solution is in the behavior now. That's why Jonathan Blau, that almost rhymes.

That's why, uh, what you guys do at Fusion is so important is you get people [00:04:30] to do what they need to do now, and now is a daily event. So, and, and the proposition is dynamic. It's not a one and done show, and that's why you need your things change [00:04:45] and adjusting behavior is the brilliance of your business.

Jonathan Blau: Well, thank you Doug. And I, by the way, I, I love what you just described about, uh, past behaviors and, and that that tells us what we're gonna do and how we're going to, [00:05:00] um, automatically respond to stimuli. Right. But one of the things I always say in our industry, uh, to, um, illuminate what you said that in, and I think a, a way that people, investors can understand is what we do is, is, is different than [00:05:15] what the industry does.

The industry tries to use all kinds of. Technical and analytical solutions to a problem that's almost purely emotional and behavioral, and so it can't succeed. But what I also say is, at the disclaimer, in any investment, uh, product [00:05:30] you have this, uh, and I'm paraphrasing it, past performance is not indicative or a guarantee of future performance.

So they're trying to, um, advise people the industry using, uh, variables that can't be predicted or controlled past [00:05:45] performance, uh, economic forecasting, market timing. Um, but what we do is what you just said, we actually understand the key or dominant issue that stands in the way of success or failure is your behavior.

And the good news about that is, [00:06:00] unlike past performance, past behaviors can be predicted and control. So I say it that way. Yeah, 

Doug Lennick: well, and you know, and emotions that are connected to those behaviors can be understood and [00:06:15] they will recur. You and I've, as we've gotten to know one another, we talked about that.

I mean, I was, uh, my, my dad passed away a number of years ago, but in preparation for one of my books, I was asking him during the course of your [00:06:30] day, you know, how do you feel? And we, long story short, we ended up where he said, well, Dee, I, we feel the same things every day. And I said, that's kind of what I expected because my emotions are going [00:06:45] to recur.

What stimulates them is going to change. Right. And And what we need to understand about emotional intelligence, there's a few things I'd like to give as headlines. Number one, emotional [00:07:00] intelligence is real. Number two, it is not cognitive. That's confusing because we're talking about it, but emotional intelligence is not cognitive.

It exists [00:07:15] independent from cognitive thought and emotional intelligence, sacrifices, accuracy for speed. It's a survival intelligence. It's fast as heck. Can I say [00:07:30] heck on tv? Yes, you can. We're not on tv, YouTube. We're not on tv. But you can, but it, it, and, and this, this people will have fun with this. Our emotional intelligence.

No kidding. Cannot tell the difference between a bear [00:07:45] market and a bear in the woods. 

Jonathan Blau: That's, you stole my line. 

Doug Lennick: Yeah. Well, it can't, it just doesn't 

Jonathan Blau: know. That's it. The, the amygdala, the base of our brain. That's a fear sensor sends off the same signal [00:08:00] regardless. Yeah. And that's where the, the end, the beginning of the end occurs for investors who don't have to now contemplate.

Life and death threats in the African Savannah, the bear in the woods, or versus, uh, vagaries of the financial markets and how [00:08:15] to deal with 'em. We are programmed to do the opposite, right? 

Doug Lennick: Yeah, no, exactly right. And, you know, and fortunately, um, for everybody watching this show, many of them are your clients.

They're working with somebody who understands [00:08:30] that, you know, and, and the, the thing about it is, and I, I actually, you know, have. I mean, I didn't have a large and lengthy encounter, but I did have the occasion to, uh, [00:08:45] see an, an encounter sort of a bear in the wild, and, and it will scare you. It's a real true deal.

Get your heart a fluttering, right? So, so we have to understand the human, we, we are [00:09:00] wired, we are wired to survive. And if, if, and, and our wiring. The exterior, the wiring, our survival instincts are wired and they're stimulated by [00:09:15] the motions we experience when something stimulates us from the outside. So if it's a bear in the woods, in my case, so the bear comes out of the woods, I'm with a a guy, and we had just gotten into our [00:09:30] canoe and I was in the stern, he was in the bow.

I was more experienced. Bears walking outta the woods, maybe, maybe 10 yards, 30 feet, 40 feet maybe from, uh, as he starts [00:09:45] to approach the shoreline. And I en encouraged, uh, my colleague to not stand up and swamp the canoe. Just sit there please. Luckily we were in an aluminum canoe and so I could use that to make noise.

And the bear didn't bother us [00:10:00] and left us and alone, but it was great. But the irrational thing. What we say, and I'm sure you've told your your investors this many times irrational decision making trumps high IQ every time. So this isn't [00:10:15] about how smart you are. This is about how able you are to access, how smart you are in the presence of the bear, whether it's the bear in the woods or the bear market.

And what you get with Jonathan Blau is someone who [00:10:30] prepares people for the truth and the truth is. Uncertainty. We don't know what's gonna get gonna happen. So what we're gonna do is just get ready for everything so that when you need money, there's a smart place to get it. So anyway, sorry about 

Jonathan Blau: that.

Yeah. And, and Doug, to your, your, [00:10:45] your, your term, right? This term belongs to you. Financial intelligence. Uh, the ability to make smart, responsible, value-based decisions in the face of, uh. Emotions that conflict with those [00:11:00] decisions and are difficult to deal with. Right. You just described that. Yes. And what you said, now that's your phrase.

And what I always say to people is that, um, you, you have to be able to stay rational under conditions of [00:11:15] uncertainty. And when you define, because I've just only in the last few months, begun learning your approach. Um, the, the four Rs, right? Oh, yeah. Recognize, reflect, reframe, and, and respond. And so I, I, I [00:11:30] determine that when we are dealing with, uh, the way we're programmed for quick decisions, uh, we oftentimes don't let our reflective mind overcome the reflexive mind, the automatic yes.

And so by using your four [00:11:45] Rs, by recognizing the bias that, that, that start trying to take over. Then reflecting on what's important to me, what are my values? Then you slow down. I think that process, right? That's what you've figured out how to do. Well, [00:12:00] that's your disciples. Well, 

Doug Lennick: well, it stops that amygdala hijack that you were referencing, and not very many people, you know, and talk about the amygdala hijacks.

So I was interested in you bringing it up, but that's how you stop it so you recognize what's happening. [00:12:15] What happens is, is an, uh, something happens outside of us and it stimulates us emotionally first. That happens really, really fast. And so we need to recognize that moment. So that's just a [00:12:30] recognition moment, and we can cover in like 10 seconds, well, maybe a little longer.

A little game that people can play with themselves that will change their lives. I mean, unbel, it's hard to believe that in, uh, however long our podcast [00:12:45] is. You can get some life changing stuff, but I've seen, uh, some of what you do and it's life changing, and I hope this is one of them, which 

Jonathan Blau: is, oh, thank you.

Doug Lennick: Every one of 'em, every, everybody watching this, any one of us can [00:13:00] practice till it becomes a habit. We are aware of our moment to moment reality. That's the first R recognition, and it's the first part of that first R. Recognize, recognize what? [00:13:15] What am I thinking right now? How am I feeling right now physically, what's going on with me right now?

Reality is a combination of those three things, and if we think about them in the form of a triangle, we [00:13:30] have our cognitive thought. We have our emotions and then we have our physical self. So when something happens outside of us, maybe the market drops 10% or maybe we, or, or, or maybe it [00:13:45] goes up or maybe this or that happens.

When that occurs, that's outside of us. It stimulates us emotionally first, and our emotional intelligence is there to help us survive. We're [00:14:00] wired to live another day. It wants us to emote. And Jonathan, what you and I want our listeners and reviewers to do is e think mote. We don't want you to emote because if you emote, you might e make a [00:14:15] mistake and we'd rather you e think mote, and that's the reflection part.

But you first have to recognize I'm all charged up. Not a good time to make a decision. Even though some of the shows you might watch on tv, [00:14:30] they're telling you you gotta decide in 30 seconds. No you don't. Right, right. True. No, you don't. Well, 

Jonathan Blau: you know it's interesting, as you described that, it reminds me so much of what I was prepared for when I first had it testify.[00:14:45] 

In an important, um, setting about 15 years ago. And the lawyer we hired was a tremendous, uh, human being like you are and, and, and, and a, a very accomplished professional. He taught me these, this, this acronym, [00:15:00] L-T-E-Q-T-B-Y-A. Listen to each question, think before you answer. I've remembered that for 15 years, and that's basically what you just said.

Yes, applying it to what we do, 

Doug Lennick: right, because it's in, and what you said [00:15:15] earlier to precede it sets it all up because now that I recognize what's going on with me, I can now, uh, reflect. Now the other parts of recognizing are incidentally recognizing going, what's going on with other [00:15:30] people in your life?

The beauty for all of the listeners and viewers is Jonathan is an expert at this. So not only does he recognize what's going on within himself, he recognizes what's going on within you. That's called empathy, [00:15:45] and that allows for us to help you with this for our process. But the reflection reflect on what?

Reflect on the big picture, reflect on what really matters well, what really matters. You sh if you haven't done so. [00:16:00] And this is shameless self-promotion. You can go to our website that, and, and do the values exercise. It's free, but take the time. To think about what you care most about and the exercise literally is free.

[00:16:15] We have thousands of people do this every week. We're proud to say if you search values exercise or values card exercise, we're the number one result of that. I have nothing to do with that, but a lot of great people [00:16:30] do. But that's because people. Care about what they care about and you should know what you care about.

That's what you should reflect on. The big picture, the third R, is to reframe. That just means what I was thinking when I was [00:16:45] recognizing when the thing started. I'm so, now that I reflected on things, I can change my mind. You know, I'm kind of the Winnie the Poo guy in that. I think it was Winnie. I might get it wrong, but once upon a time.

Winnie the poo [00:17:00] didn't like the shirt he had on. He looked down, didn't like the shirt, so he decided to change his mind so he wouldn't have to change his shirt. That's reframing. And then the last one is respond. You respond with a decision [00:17:15] aligned with what matters to you most, and given how you've been prepared.

And it, it's a real. Process that any one of us can learn to do 

Jonathan Blau: so, and, and I'm learning it myself. As we were preparing for the podcast and reading [00:17:30] your books, I really wanted to internalize the message that you were delivering because I felt like I should be able to understand that given what I already knew.

And, and, and I, and I feel like after talking with you, I, I, I did understand it and it's helping me to do what I do, I think more [00:17:45] effectively, at least. Well, you actually. 

Doug Lennick: Know that, uh, practice makes permanent. So the idea here is if people practice this multiple times a day, I mean, we send out little notes to people.

Tens of thousands of them go out every [00:18:00] day. It says, freeze. What are you thinking? How are you feeling? What are you doing? And then the bonus question, could I be thinking or doing something better? If people practice the freeze game until it becomes a habit, it will profoundly change their lives. If the [00:18:15] second thing they do is they reflect on a regular basis on their values, those two things together, I use water as a reflection.

This is one that I'm about to finish, and what happens is when I drink water, I can [00:18:30] go through my values. Mine are family, happiness, wisdom, integrity, service, and health. So I can do this.

Really quickly, and in that [00:18:45] blink of that time I run, this goes through my head. Love your family, be happy. Seek wisdom. Do something of service for somebody else today, please. And make a healthy choice. And then I. [00:19:00] Have that little water and I set that little water bottle down and I look at it and I smile at it, and I smile back at you and I say to myself, you made one just now, Doug.

Hey you. You go. That's it. That's it. So if we [00:19:15] can help your viewers do those things, that's the behavioral hook that will help them live the legacy they would like to leave. 

Jonathan Blau: And that's what's nice about what you do. That that was a little bit. Um, [00:19:30] uh, I'd say it's somewhat absent from my training, which my training didn't really, uh, have as much, uh, of an infusion of looking out for others and, and not just making good financial decisions, but decisions that can better your [00:19:45] life, better others' lives and, and, and, and focus on your true values, uh, so that all of those other things can be accomplished.

I, I want to just take a step back and go back into your. Um, beginnings, uh, in your career because some of the things [00:20:00] we didn't talk about yet, one of the things that fascinates me for better or worse, is that, uh, you accomplished what you accomplished at such an early age, uh, being an advisor to the CEO of Ameriprise and so forth.

You accomplished, uh, the, the, the [00:20:15] guidance of 17,000 associates to record heights. Uh, with your insight early on into how important these things we're talking about are before most people in practicing, um, circles knew about it, but you did it [00:20:30] without a college degree. You didn't have a college degree until you were 58.

So what I want to know is, um. How did you find the confidence to enter and succeed in, into the financial services business without a formal college education? And once you tell [00:20:45] us that, did you ever feel outmatched or potentially that you would be outmatched by peers with degrees or MBAs? And then how did you overcome that, uh, to, to succeed the way you did?

Doug Lennick: Well, that's a, that's a fun question. I will [00:21:00] say this. First of all, um, you, I did not graduate from college. Until I was 57. I, I've, I, I misread the fine print. I thought it was a 40 year degree and I was a year early. Uh, [00:21:15] but it was a four year degree and I was 35 years late. Uh, but I started on time. I just slowed it down.

That said, why, why that, how it all happened in my life and is my family moved a lot. [00:21:30] I grew up in Western North Dakota and my dad. Uh, who himself had attended college? Never completed college. My son was actually the first Len on our side of the family to graduate from college. [00:21:45] And, uh, and, and I raced my daughter, uh, to be the second.

And I think she might've beat me, but it doesn't matter. I graduated. You finished? But, but when I was young, [00:22:00] we moved a lot. I went to eight schools in 12 years. Every time we didn't, we, we didn't have kindergarten or preschool or anything like that. And, um, and my sister and I, she was three [00:22:15] years older than me.

We, we, we shared a bedroom in all the places we lived until she was in the seventh grade and I was in the fourth grade and we just moved and I kept going to different schools. And every time John, I [00:22:30] was afraid. For myself, I was afraid no one will like me. I was afraid I won't be a good student here. I won't compete academically.

I was afraid I won't be a good, I won't be able to play sports. Everywhere I went, those [00:22:45] three things were on my mind. Will anybody like me, will I be a, a, a competitive student? 'cause I valued my academics and will I be a competitive athlete? And everywhere I went I was. [00:23:00] What happened is I started to believe in myself.

And so when I started my career, I was, I started investing first. I was, uh, uh, I started college. I was gonna be a [00:23:15] teacher and a coach, so I went to the University of Minnesota, Morris, uh, where I was going to, where I played football for a couple years. No big star, I will assure you. And, but learned a lot.

And then realized there wasn't gonna be a lot of [00:23:30] opportunity there. And so I decided I'd be an accountant, transferred, never finished. And then I, when I got back to it, um, I, I ended up realizing the education was useful. I'm a junior, [00:23:45] uh, at the university. I transferred and I became a client. I started investing.

I was one of those guys that started putting $30 a month into a mutual fund. It was expensive. It was 20%. It cost me, first [00:24:00] year was the front end load, 20%, but I paid 20% so that I could own stocks in a mutual fund, you know? And I was 20 years old. This 20, yeah, it was 1972, and then I got recruited in 73. [00:24:15] I started in 74.

I believed in what I was doing and, and I've told, and 

Jonathan Blau: by the way, to still believe in what you were doing because that investment that you made in 72 in the next two years went down 50% on top of the 20% it cost you to [00:24:30] enter. Yeah. You, you really became a believer experientially learning how Yeah. 

Doug Lennick: Well, I was unaware.

That the first year, and you're, I people may or may not know this, I'm guessing it'll be new news for some, but the [00:24:45] very first year the Dow Jones closed above a thousand was 1972. Yep. The next year, you might remember this being a Nick Murray disciple, but the next year it closed above a thousand. The next [00:25:00] year it closed above a thousand was 1982.

Amy Blau: Yep. 

Doug Lennick: 11 years later. And I always say it didn't go and it went from 1,020 in 1972 to 1,047 in [00:25:15] 1982. And I say it didn't go straight up those 27 points. It Zi did it zag, certainly did not. And that zigging and zagging people either learned to behave or they didn't. And, and if you wanted to have more money, one of the tricks [00:25:30] was you should put some aside.

In the 1980s, the way you had more money is you just took it outta your house and then things burst, and things did this and that. And luckily, people like yourself came along and realized, you know, [00:25:45] what's mucking it up for everybody is their emotions. They don't do the right thing at the right times. And we can help them with that by giving them a little behavioral financial advice, which is so it's 

Jonathan Blau: interesting what you just said.

They don't do the [00:26:00] right things at the right times. In my teachings from Nick Murray, yes, there are three, uh, principles or attitudinal beliefs that were important are important. One is, uh, faith in the future if you don't have a reasonable faith in the future, uh, every [00:26:15] bump in the road looks like the end of the road and you're not gonna make it to the end of the road.

And then you have, um, it, it's faith in the future and it's patience and discipline. The patience part. What you just said, uh, make sure, make sure you don't [00:26:30] make, make sure you don't do the wrong thing at the wrong time. But then there's the discipline part, which is make sure in spite of what's, uh, influencing your temperament in the wrong way at the time, continue to do the right things.

If you're saving 10,000 a month into your [00:26:45] portfolio, don't stop. So the patience and the discipline are different things, but both, uh, attitudinal beliefs that are critical. 'cause it's beliefs, I believe, and I know you believe that dictate behaviors. Yeah, absolutely. If you don't have the right beliefs, you, you can't succeed.

Well, 

Doug Lennick: Nick Murray's [00:27:00] so. Right. You know, and I, I remember on the occasions I had to meet Nick and we were at same events. We hired him to speak at some of our events in my day. And, and I remember him especially that first point, and he would tell our [00:27:15] financial advisors, he would say, you will never make a good investor who has no faith in the future.

And, and that is absolutely true. And for those of us who have no faith in the future, it doesn't matter where your money is if you, it [00:27:30] really doesn't, if they're well, or 

Jonathan Blau: the nice thing is if they have someone like you on your end with the way you teach executives and people like me or someone like me.

It's okay if you don't have the faith as long as you have a a tough, loving, empathetic counselor who [00:27:45] can infuse the faith when you need it and don't have it. Yes. 

Doug Lennick: Well, and what really, this is no kidding. What you have in a, in a specifically a Jonathan Lau, is you have, you know, the word fiduciary is, is a, is a great [00:28:00] word, and it says, I'm gonna act in the best interest of, of my client.

But what, when you really look at that. How deep do they go? And what a behavioral finance person does is go way deeper [00:28:15] than those who don't practice that. I mean, it doesn't mean they're not acting in your best interest. It's just less depth. And it's the behavioral part that necessitates the depth of truly knowing what [00:28:30] people care about.

And that's why I, I encourage all of you. Do the exercise, do the values exercise, it costs you nothing and it may change your life. You do that and the freeze game [00:28:45] and hire Jonathan Blau. You're done. 

Jonathan Blau: How's that going? Well, I appreciate that, Doug. So I, I think, I think, um, when you're, when you're talking to young, younger people who are either.

On the, at [00:29:00] the executive level or coming into our business as, as future advisors. Um, what do you see? Um, that they can, what do you advise them to do to increase the probability that they'll be able to [00:29:15] help people? Right. Because you can have the willingness to be a fiduciary, right? Yeah. In other words, every good intention.

Yeah. But what you just described is you may not have the capacity to be the, the best fiduciary that you can be. Yeah. If you don't understand emotional intelligence. [00:29:30] Yes. And, and, and, and moral intelligence. Um, what do you, what do you tell these people they should do everything from, you know, should, should, can they succeed on their own?

Do they need to hook up with someone like you or like me and, and become part of the [00:29:45] team so they can learn? Any of those things that come to mind? 

Doug Lennick: Well, I, I, I would say this, the, and, and I, I have said this for, for decades now. That the foundational, if you look at years [00:30:00] ago when I first got into, uh, hiring and developing other people to do this profession, I was very young when I started.

I was 21 when I became an advisor. Uh, and I got into, in, into management, uh, [00:30:15] when I was 23. And so I was doing this right away. And, and one of the things that I did at the time, John, is I wrote down this formula for success. First of all, I, I had this weird head in my mind. You know, I'm that [00:30:30] kind of guy. I, I said, show you, show me a happy person and I'll declare them a success.

I don't care if they live in a castle or a tent. So I look at success and happiness is sort of the same thing that said [00:30:45] both success slash happiness. Think of them together. It's an action sport. Happiness is an action sport. Success is an action sport. And here's the formula, it's good attitude plus a work effort.[00:31:00] 

You gotta work at it, it you, you put it in. And then plus preparation. And you cannot give away that which you do not have. If you do not have love in your heart. It's hard to love someone. If you do not have an ability to [00:31:15] handle your own emotions. It's hard to help others do the same. So when I looked at that formula, good attitude plus work effort plus preparation, I divided preparation into physical, mental, emotional, and I [00:31:30] would simply add to that moral 'cause.

At that time, I kind of had it twisted in there. But those are the things and what I would do and answer to your question for anybody at any stage in life, wherever you are. [00:31:45] The younger you are, the luckier you are. I would focus on the development of my differentiating competencies, which regardless of the discipline you are in, the discipline doesn't [00:32:00] matter.

The differentiating competencies are always emotional and moral. Cognitive and technical competencies are table stakes. They are necessary but not [00:32:15] sufficient. Everybody who passes the test is smart enough to pass the test. That doesn't mean they have the moral integrity that you need them to have to truly be a fiduciary and [00:32:30] act in your best interest, and when they see something, say something.

And do that. And I borrow that from, uh, from, uh, Adam Holt, who's, uh, a FinTech guy, runs a company called Asset Map. So [00:32:45] I think the idea of of doing this is just the, the thing, and anybody entering this industry, incidentally, this is a profession, and Jonathan Blau and Amy Blau are two examples of [00:33:00] people who have figured out we can do very well.

We can make a living making a difference. And the biggest part of our income is the psychic part, not the financial part, the [00:33:15] psychic part, the reward that the blouses get, making the difference in the lives of their viewers and their, and their listeners. And 

Jonathan Blau: yeah. And that's become more apparent to me, Doug, as, as we've progressed in our careers and, and, uh, got to [00:33:30] experience and celebrate with more people that we have helped.

And, and get the feedback that, uh, that confirms what we believe is actually happening is happening. I wanted to, um, talk to you a little bit about was you talk about moral [00:33:45] iq, right? So we, we talked about the, the emotional iq and I think that's somewhat. Easier for a lot of people who listen to understand, okay, I've got these biases, they're kind of automatic re they're re re reflexive and I've gotta slow 'em down to make, [00:34:00] uh, better decisions that I have a chance to think about before my body forces me to have my amygdala, um, hijacked and so forth, you know, and take over.

But the, the moral intelligence I had to spend some time on. And, and I know there are core universal [00:34:15] principles of forgiveness and responsibility, which I know you say is the most important. You've gotta take ownership above all else. And then integrity and compassion. And when I thought and reflected upon this, I said, so it's not [00:34:30] necessarily that people aren't practicing with these principles, uh, because they're morally corrupt.

In my mind, I like to, I always give the benefit of the doubt, but, but probably many of us, like I am and was until I'm, um, [00:34:45] benefiting from your work and familiarizing myself, not morally corrupt, but morally unconscious. Right. The same way we're emotionally unconscious the other way. Yeah. That's my take.

But I'd like you to maybe, well, I like that comment on. 

Doug Lennick: You actually gave me a better, uh, maybe a [00:35:00] better word than I use because mine is a little bit more pejorative because I say morally incompetent. Uh, okay. And, uh, and, and I will, using myself as a, as an example, I [00:35:15] know I have been morally intelligent and morally incompetent in the same exact moment.

Now, how could that be so? Well, the difference is moral intelligence is knowing one [00:35:30] from the other. That's knowing right and wrong. I have done the wrong thing. I mean, when I went to college my junior year, I transferred to the main campus, university of Minnesota. And uh, in one [00:35:45] of the classes that I had to get, I had to take, uh, computer programming.

We had to take something and I took. Fortran, you'd take COBOL or FORTRAN back in the day. I 

Jonathan Blau: remember co I took cobol, they came obsolete a [00:36:00] year after I, I spent, uh, time learning. 

Doug Lennick: Yeah. Well, here's what I did, and I know it was wrong. I took FORTRAN and I spent no time learning. So I didn't learn the Fortran.

I just took the course [00:36:15] and I know it was wrong, but. My roommate was taking the course also, and he helped me get through the homework and such, and so I passed the course, but I didn't ever learn the language. That's moral [00:36:30] incompetence. I knew that was wrong. So the idea is I would do, and the four Rs were literally created to help us develop those differentiating competencies.

If [00:36:45] people go through those four Rs that you mentioned earlier, they recognize what's going on that's designed to help them understand, am I in a highly charged situation? And if I am, I am [00:37:00] compromised. I am not in a place to make a good decision. I need to reflect. The reflection process will engage the cognitive brain.

It'll increase the probability of making a rational [00:37:15] decision. Now, it is important to note, and you and I both have experienced this ourselves and with our clients. Rational decisions don't always work, and irrational decisions don't always not work. [00:37:30] That said, you're better off going rational than irrational.

And so the reflection process. Is designed to engage. And if you can do it, get real precise in [00:37:45] naming your emotion. It's called linguistic labeling. It forces you to think that calms your emotional center and increases your access to your brain. So if you go back to those circles we talked about earlier, [00:38:00] when the, when, when the emotional center, when the amygdala gets all rattled, what happens is if you think of that.

Thought circle as the sun and the emotion circle. As the moon. What we experience is a partial [00:38:15] eclipse and we can't think clearly, and what we're trying to do with the four Rs is clear your head. Now that you've reflected your prepared to reframe, now you can think differently [00:38:30] and what we typically do is encourage you to ask your advisor.

Do you wanna weigh in with me on what I could do? And Jonathan might say, yeah, I'll weigh in with you. I'll help you out. I'll help you with the [00:38:45] reframing, and then make a decision. That's the response. But those are the things, and people can do that. And literally what we've done today, remarkably enough, if they take a couple of the pieces that we've worked on today, those [00:39:00] things will be profound in the difference they make.

Their lives. You'll be amazed how much it'll change your life. Just paying attention. 

Jonathan Blau: And I, and I hope everybody listening takes the time. 'cause Doug is very [00:39:15] humble. He is. He is. He is. Been, uh. Among the most successful people I've met in helping people help themselves to become the best selves they can.

Um, I in many ways, and one, one of the things I wanna say, I just wanna comment, Doug, on what you said, 'cause I, it just [00:39:30] resonated with me. And when you said that, um, you can make irrational decisions that can have, uh, a better outcome than the rational decision that can happen. But what I always talk about is the compounding of rational decision making.

[00:39:45] Meaning that if you're always rational and you're focused on the input, uh, then the outcome bias, right? We judge whether or not we should be continuing a behavior based solely on the outcome. So now that's called outcome bias. And when we do that, [00:40:00] to me, over the long run, you're compounding irrationality is going to fail even if yes, occasionally the ir So, so when you compound rationality, you, you, you're in touch with your outcome bias.

Don't let it overtake whether or not the consistent. Rational [00:40:15] inputs are the right way to go because I agree with you that they always are. And then the last thing I want to comment on is you mentioned, um, about happiness and so forth. And one of the things that resonated with me, right, is being happy. I don't care how much money you have, I wanna know if you're happy.

So I was listening to Morgan [00:40:30] Hausel, uh, one of his podcasts and yeah, I love Morgan Hausel. 

Doug Lennick: He's great. 

Jonathan Blau: I love how he defines wealth. It's the ability to wake up and do what you want when you want, with whomever you want for as long as you want. There's no dollar amount that can measure that. What he also says is, if you [00:40:45] want to be wealthier, there, there are only two ways to, to get yourself to be wealthier.

You either have to sacrifice more. I'm gonna work longer hours, I'm gonna take more jobs on, I'm gonna, uh, spend less time with my family or want less. [00:41:00] Right. And, and the way he puts that, it just so, uh, it is so accurate, right. With what you're saying is that that gets to happiness, 

Doug Lennick: right? Yes, absolutely.

Well, and I've said. Uh, happiness is a state of mind, [00:41:15] not a state of affairs. And the difference is happiness. There is a contingency. Happiness is a state of mind that one gets to experience when their behaviors are in alignment with the things that [00:41:30] really matter. So what happens is the reason the, the blouse and my observation, knowing both of you for a very short time, you're a happy couple.

And, and that that happiness is a state of mind [00:41:45] because you are aligning what you do every day with what you care about and it makes you happy amongst the things you care about, obviously is helping your clients and, and when you help them, [00:42:00] you feel better about it. That's the psychic income. We have state of values.

We've done this state of values report now two years in a row. And what's interesting, Jonathan, is the, uh, globally and [00:42:15] domestically I'll talk. They're, they happen to be the same, but the top three values, domestically and globally are in order family, health and happiness. [00:42:30] Those three in order. People all over the world care about people.

People all over the world wanna be healthy so that they can enjoy their lives. And people all wanna be [00:42:45] happy. They either are or they'd like to be. There isn't anybody who doesn't want to be, who is actually themselves. Rational, rational human beings would prefer to be happy. Why not? Right. Make [00:43:00] makes 

Jonathan Blau: sense.

Yes. Makes sense. So, Doug, with that, I, I want to um, well, go ahead. I'm sorry if you had something to finish with that. No, I wanted to, one, do some of the key takeaways, and this was such a treat for me. I really do. Again, thank you from the bottom of my heart for [00:43:15] coming on. Um, uh, the things we, we wanna emphasize today is that when you're looking for a better financial life and, and life overall, focus on, um.

What's important? What, what are the values that are important to you? Align [00:43:30] the decisions with the values and focus on not, uh, being reflexive and letting the amygdala, as we call it, take over, uh, the, the response, uh, take a time to, to, to think about what's going on and then make a rational, uh, [00:43:45] decision on how to respond to.

And understand that in life in general, it's, it's, um, not technical and analytical. Um, solutions we should be looking for. For most things it's behavioral solutions. Yeah. Because that, that's ultimately what [00:44:00] pulls the trigger is our behavior. Um, and well, and we 

Doug Lennick: experience life emotionally. 

Jonathan Blau: That's 

Doug Lennick: it. Deal.

We don't, don't experience life cognitively. I mean, we think about what's going on, but the, you feel your life. You don't think your life, you feel it. 

Jonathan Blau: No, that's, that's a [00:44:15] great point. So I want you, Doug, to also tell our listeners where they can learn more about you think to perform. And some of the other, um, some, some of the other, um, offerings that you have to help people.

The way you talk about that, well, you can go to 

Doug Lennick: think to [00:44:30] perform the word think the number two, perform.com. That's our website. You can Google me, you see my name, um, and it turns out I'm the only one who pops up when you Google my name, I think [00:44:45] Jonathan Blouse is the only one who pops up when you Google his name too.

And you're welcome to that and our website. A lot of activity there. You can do a lot of things that hopefully you benefit from and it costs you nothing. The values exercise is just [00:45:00] one of them. Uh, please buy my books, all of them. And uh, and, and you could find them either on our website or of course you can go to Amazon.

Um, you know, and I'm. I'm very fortunate to [00:45:15] have been part of this podcast and to get to learn from guys like Jonathan because what they're doing, living the life is, is what keeps us relevant because we need to continue to help [00:45:30] each of us align our real behaviors with what really matters to us. For very many people, life passes them by.

One of my very good friends, he owns a company called the Hans Group, name's John Hans. And he says, don't be [00:45:45] late to your life. Don't be late to your life. And the thing about it is, anybody can get started today if you haven't had a chance, take a look at, uh, what Warren Buffet just wrote in his final thoughts.

He's [00:46:00] 95 years old and it's just a very, very, very short piece, but it's very, very worth it for all of us to read it if you haven't. Uh, and I Did you see it, Jonathan, by chance? Uh, now I did. When you, we spoke last night. I looked at it, yep. [00:46:15] Yeah, it's pretty cool. And yeah, we talked about it yesterday a bit.

Yeah. And, uh, so. I, I, that's what I would say. I don't know. I, I could stay on all forever and ever. I love this sort 

Jonathan Blau: of thing. I, I'm with you and we're gonna, we're gonna do, we'll do another one. We'll do [00:46:30] a follow up. But, uh, when you said about, uh, the, the, your, your comments on life, but reminds me, I think it was, it's either Louis Prima or, or, uh, Lou Monte, but I think it's Louis Prima.

Enjoy yourself. It's later than you think. And, [00:46:45] uh, and that, that just reminds me that song is what came to mind when you said that, so don't let it pass you by. Thank you again, everybody for joining us on this episode of Crazy Wealthy. You can get us on Apple, Spotify, all your favorite venues in the crazy wealthy podcast.com [00:47:00] website, as well as fusion family wealth.com.

Stay tuned to hear. Amy's calling for the recap of today's episode. 

Amy Blau: Hello, honey. Hello. How are you? I am good. We are now in Knoxville, sunny Florida, [00:47:15] but uh, I know same weather, just I guess further south at this point. I'm not sure. I'd rather be in New York. Well, if you wanna go 

Jonathan Blau: back to New York, I support you, but I'll miss you [00:47:30] terribly.

Amy Blau: Okay? Okay. I, I figured that was coming. But I do know that you did have a call with Doug Lennick, who is a new friend to Fusion and to us, and, uh, one of the only men that I think is, [00:47:45] is equally passionate about behavior as you. Him and Nick Murray. Him and Nick Murray. Right. That's true. But yeah, Nick, Doug's more present to us, actually.

Jonathan Blau: Well, Doug, Doug is a [00:48:00] new friend, and, um, really, uh, a special person. Gotten to know him. You, you got to know him a little bit too. And Doug has a company called Think to Perform. He, uh, he, he coaches, um, every, everyone from [00:48:15] executives. To, uh, athletes and, and every, everything in between on how to make consistent rational decisions.

But you, but, but by basing your decision process on what's most important to you from a [00:48:30] values-based standpoint, uh, and having empathy, uh, for others and everything else. So it was very unique, uh, strategy, but it's, it's also very effective. He actually, um, was the advisor to Ken Schnat, who was the CEO of American Express.

[00:48:45] During the whole nine 11 crisis and was able to get him as a leader to understand how to navigate successfully through that whole debacle to get everybody's morale up and, and keep the company moving in the right direction. So this is [00:49:00] not just soft stuff. This stuff actually works in real life. 

Amy Blau: Well, what's interesting about Doug just from talking him is that.

It seems as though he is not motivated by money, and I'm sure he's done very well for himself over the years, but [00:49:15] he's motivated also by what he does with his money, so doing good. You know, one, the one project he talked about, which is a pet project of his, is that he. Took a community theater near him in I [00:49:30] think Minnesota, where it was, it was failing, but he want, he thought theater was so important to the community that he got a bunch of investors together and they bought it and they built it back up and they lost money for a [00:49:45] couple of years.

And he said in the end, they've all made tremendous money on it. They weren't doing it for that purpose. They were doing it so they can keep theater going. So sometimes he does things just out of the goodness of his heart and it, it worked out [00:50:00] well financially for him in this situation. And one of the things he said 

Jonathan Blau: in the podcast is he equates.

Happiness with success. So he said, you gimme someone who's happy and I'll declare them successful. I don't care whether they're living, this was his quote [00:50:15] in a, in a castle or a tent. And so that, that kind of sums up how he feels about, um, about success and happiness. And what's interesting is he, at, at 21, I, I think, began his career in this space [00:50:30] and.

By 23, he was already in management, uh, and before he had a college degree and long before he was the, uh, the senior advisor to the CEO of, uh, of American Express and American Express [00:50:45] Financial Advisors, which became Ameriprise. Um, and when I asked him during the podcast, uh, how did you find the confidence to compete?

In such a competitive space and succeed when you're competing with people who [00:51:00] have degrees, sometimes advanced degrees and so forth, and you didn't have college degree. And he, he had an interesting story. Apparently his family was somewhat nomadic and I guess job to job. He was in seven or eight different, uh, places growing up.

And he said each time he had to go to a new place, [00:51:15] he was always worried about three things. Will I be liked? Will I be able to succeed in school? 'cause academics were important to him. And will I be able to compete in the athletic. Uh, programs, and he said the answer to all three of those in each of the places was, yes, [00:51:30] I was able, I was liked, I was able to compete in both academics and sports.

And that gave him the self-confidence to succeed, uh, and compete and, and take on the, the challenges that he took on 

Amy Blau: early on. It's amazing. It really is. And the [00:51:45] one funny thing I, I heard is I know that, um, you know, I know that he didn't graduate from college right then and there, and he, he said something, he thought it was a four, gonna be a four year degree, but it really was a 40 plus year.

A 40 year. 

Jonathan Blau: And he got out one year early. Right. [00:52:00] 

Amy Blau: But one thing I heard in, in, uh, another, I was listening to another one of his podcasts. He was saying that he went to college to take classes. You know, he, he was with seniors, juniors and [00:52:15] seniors, but he was a senior, really a senior. And he said in that class, one of the books that they had to read on their list was his book.

So it was crazy story for him that he was the author of one of the [00:52:30] books in the syllabus, and he still had to read it. 

Jonathan Blau: Doesn't surprise me. You know, he, he, early in, in the early seventies, Amos Turky and, uh, Daniel Kahneman were the two, uh, pioneers in psychology who, [00:52:45] who really uncovered the modern day knowledge, um, of, of, uh, making decisions un under uncertainty, judgment and, and decision making.

And, um. Doug was right on that [00:53:00] work early in the seventies, long before, uh, Turky died. And, and, and Kahneman won the Nobel Prize. I think it was around 2002. Um, Doug recognized there's a huge demand for financial advice, but more importantly, he also recognized that that [00:53:15] advice cannot be effective at the level it needs to be without it being behavioral based.

He knew that decades before I even came close to learning about it. And, uh, and it's still. Very, very, um, underutilized in, in our practice. But anyway, this was a [00:53:30] great podcast, one of the most fun podcasts I had. So what did you say 

Amy Blau: is the, the takeaway? What, what's the lesson that you have learned from Doug in your both, both professionally and personally?

Jonathan Blau: Well, professionally and personally, I think, I think one thing that was [00:53:45] missing from my training and, and my whole process is, uh, the basing your, your decisions not just on what's rational, but on what's most highly valued by you. Right. What is it that you value the most in life? And then [00:54:00] base the decisions on that.

That always takes you back to a good place. And also empathy. Not just understanding what's important to you, but understanding what's important to the others, right? To the whole team of employees and American Express, not just what's important to, to the leader of [00:54:15] American Express, but to the people that you're leading and how they're feeling.

It's, it's the empathy and the value piece that was missing from mine, which now I'm really trying to incorporate. In my life, not just my practice. 

Amy Blau: Yeah, I was gonna say, maybe you should incorporate that into your marriage a little bit. Let's [00:54:30] have some empathy for me. I'm dealing with this all day long.

I'm dealing with you. I'm dealing with, you know, the, the one being that is Jonathan Blouse. So have a little empathy for me. 

Jonathan Blau: I will, I will start to work on that. I'll incorporate that. Okay. But I have to see [00:54:45] if that fits into my value system. Okay. 

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